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Dreams for V0.3

request

#41

I understand it seems easy for expierienced users/programmers to come up with great units to do things but they still have to be modified/tweaked to actually work. one thing to remember is the user base consists of many different people with different lives/incomes/ jobs/amounts of time/patience to learn what the masters know. it seems easy for a person who makes a living working on the actual units or platform, but for people that work other non related type jobs and have family & health issues it is a different world.I understand both ways of thinking. BUT i need to have something useable i can turn the thing on and get to having fun satisfaction without having to read through threads for whatever time to find out how the masters get it to work…

i hope this makes sense.

it seems like once “patch sharing” is really put into effect maybe alot of these issues will be simplified, no ?

hope im coming off as making sense and not being a dik haha.


#42

That is exactly right. The current preset sharing system is awkward. It will not be that way forever. :bow:

I think there is only person who fits that description and it is me!

Makes sense to me!


#43

cool!!! and i want to apologize to the awesome community here for not being able to participate more. I think this place is very good, and teaching/learning aspect is incredible. I just wish and hope for finding more time in my life to take advantage of it all. thanks to you all .


#44

@jonny is close to what i mean with having a movable window with start and endpoints cv’able.

What i’m suggesting is cv control of start point, of end point and of the playback head in that window. I want to be able slide that window around a sample whilst manipulating the size of that window whilst playing playhead inside window in various ways (forward/reverse/ping pong/random etc).

You mentioned to try using the Sample player. I had an extra play with that today, just in case i missed some of its functionality before i responded.

I think you have half the functionality in Manual Grains and Half the functionality in the Sample Player + some missing bits, in what i’m requesting. I’m not dissapointed by either of these units, they are superb and have been designed to work a very specific way.

With Manual Grains you have cv control of the start point and endpoint, but not the playhead which has the granular algorthm instead of the other playback options, and that 1 second max window is a little bit too small but is obviously great for granular.

With the Sample player you have cv control of the start point, the playhead, but not the endpoint. You can have a big window, which is a good thing, but its a non cv’able end point / defined by another slice. In other words you have cv control of the start point (via a slice marker) and you shift around this start point (slice marker) by +/- 5 seconds by “shift” (which seems to be an imaginery slice marker). Your window size is defined by the next slice +/- your “shift” (end point). You do have CV control of the playbackhead, but its a real fiddle to control using shift and speed. To get the playhead to loop you are having to use using pulse width modulation and by doing that you are introducing amplitude / audio rate modulation which directly affects the sound. Don’t get me wrong, i like these kinds of sounds, its a really interesting byproduct of modulation. Also, by moving around the playback head, to get forward and reversing of speed, directly affects the pitch - again this can be fiddled somewhat with changing the 1v/oct. These techniques are the same sort of things i use to use with a Tyme Saferi v1 because it wouldn’t loop. Its also the reason why i suggested different playback modes available per slice.
Another option would be to have cv’able slices instead of having to insert them. At the most basic level have a default of 2 - start and end point, then have some interesting options for the playback head.
Ideally, i would like better playback options when playing slices and a better way to shift and manipulate a window around a long sample.

Sorry if it sounds like i’m being picky, i can absolutely make great noises the way everything is, even if you never made any firmware updates! I’m just responding to the dreams idea.


#45

Not at all. This is wonderful that you took the time to give me this level of detail in your description of what you want.

If I may restate in my own words: You are calling for a window within a window. The outer window selects the area of interest and the inner window sets the boundaries of the playhead’s motion. Furthermore, sliding the outer window is a crucial manipulation (start+length) whereas for the inner window, manipulation of endpoints is crucial (start+end). Outer window start and length are proportional to the entire sample. Inner window start and end are proportional to the outer window. Is that right?

For you, what is the (typical) compositional role of this kind of sample manipulation?

FYI, if you are controlling the speed parameter with a square wave, there should be no amplitude modulation. Depending on the exact shape of the square wave there might be artifacts at the switching points but you can always shape your square wave (Ladder Filter, no resonance, 500Hz cutoff) to get artifact-free transitions or even go further and really smooth out the square wave to make it sound like you are moving your hand back-and-forth on a platter. I agree that the PWM part can be a bit tricky but the advantage is that your square wave can be sync’ed to other material.


#46

@odevices

Its just one window that floats above a long sample. You have cv control of start and end point or start / duration of that window and that also defines the playhead area. The playback head moves around bouncing off the start and end points of your defined window with various playback modes - looping, backwards, ping pong at different speeds.
https://youtu.be/zeIxCeJPEkw - if you watch this from 1:10 to 2:00 it will give you a very good visual idea. You can see why it is similar in some aspects to Manual Grains without the 1 sec window size but having a fast playhead running inside the window. The video has multiple windows playing ontop of the same sample but i don’t think this is possible with the er301 unless you load the same sample on a separate track.
You can get some really interesting stuff with different controls of the playback heads. Essentially you use the the windowed sample as an instrument whilst sliding the window around the sample. Theres a couple of ways compositionally i use this - like load up the exact sample song on four tracks and play each window via a cv recorder sequencer - like having 4 layered pad sounds. Another way in a live situation would be to have a backing completed track playing on one channel and the same track on another channel. The second channel you playing the window in the background for textures. Its probably most heard in ambient music along with granular stuff.

quote=“odevices, post:45, topic:804”]
FYI, if you are controlling the speed parameter with a square wave, there should be no amplitude modulation. Depending on the exact shape of the square wave there might be artifacts at the switching points but you can always shape your square wave (Ladder Filter, no resonance, 500Hz cutoff) to get artifact-free transitions or even go further and really smooth out the square wave to make it sound like you are moving your hand back-and-forth on a platter. I agree that the PWM part can be a bit tricky but the advantage is that your square wave can be sync’ed to other material.
[/quote]
thanks for that info, i did try this today with a Mangrove Oscilator varible waveshapes and also the squarewave from that but it was running to fast, so i used a dedicated slow squarewave lfo module but i didn’t filter it. I didn’t try with the onboard oscillators or filter though, so will give that a go.


#47

I think I finally see what you’re getting at, @mudlogger. I love SAMPLR - what a fun piece of kit. For some additional inspiration around playback mode, I also really like the way NI have implemented the “motion” control in Form. (I set the video start time to right where this control is shown).


#48

yes, i’ve not seen that before, but yes, the “motion” bit of that is what i was getting at with a moving playhead in a window. The curve shapes in “motion” is a clever idea / like wavetables as opposed to the much simpler Samplr idea - playback loop / reverse. He seems to be using it to animate one shots, where i would be loading a whole 5 min track of music and shifting the window around.


#49

I guess really these things (SAMPLR, Form) in ER-301 speak would be some flavor of automatic grains unit, at least I think. And there could possibly be different flavors.

Things like grain length, trigger frequency, and in fact triggering are handled automatically. Possibly polyphony too.

In the case of something like Form’s motion control, it is automatically determining the gain needed to make a full amplitude waveform perfectly traverse the window length from start (-1.0) to end (1.0), as well as the wavelength of that waveform to make it play at 1x speed over the window.

In the case of SAMPLR, it’s similar, but less options to choose from - basically just pre-set with an up or down ramp waveform to choose from that shows up as forward/reverse control.

Just musing and trying to help find the tootsie roll center. I mean, I think the manual grains unit can already do the things shown in the videos - it’s just a matter of whether the UI controls presented and math required are conducive to doing a particular type of exploration easily or whether it seems kind of tricky to get to the result.

Does that sound right? If so I guess the question is if Brian’s interested in building them or, if not, will it be able to be done in the SDK…


#50

I think it has been mentioned before and relates to time stretching.

It would be great to have an option in the sample player to be able to change the pitch of a sample but keep the length the same. For example, if I sample one note from a guitar or a synth, piano etc… and want to play it up and down the keyboard the pitch will change but the length will stay the same as the original and not get longer when the pitch goes down or get shorter when the pitch goes up.


#51

and maybe even slicing from triggers?


#52

Goodness, yes absolutely. :heart_eyes:[quote=“jonsimon, post:51, topic:804, full:true”]
and maybe even slicing from triggers?
[/quote]


#53

Not really a game breaker but getting the latency down some for triggered drum purposes would be cool. How much do you think could be shaved off the ~5ms at 96khz?


#54

I always think concerns at this level of accuracy are beyond me, I can hear things sometimes, but I just compensate elsewhere, with the gear I have this is pretty easy - Stillson Hammer has delay per step for example and I often push and pull things around a little with this.

Also, what about slicing the sample 1 or 2ms into the sample? it may make the difference up a little?

I know you probably already know about these things, so just discussing for the benefit of others.

Re. possible improvements, the hardware limit is ~2ms iirc!


#55

It’s all to do with what else is playing and being triggered “at the same point”. If the 301 is the only rhythmical sound source it wont matter, but when played alongside other machine some say analog drums with a response in the microsecond range it can become apparent. Depends largely on the sounds in question and the transients involved. 5ms is pretty good, 10ms is too slow for percussion, which is mainly what swapped me to 96k mode.

It all very much depends on what else is happening and what is the end result u desire.

Some people used to complain like hell about the subtle drift/slip in the machinedrum internal timing, where as for me it was fine and has great groove but when lining up against sample accurate ableton drums there were times it was annoying (not very, mind u).

Trimming the sample doesn’t really help though.


#56

Cool - yes, that is a good explanation!

I agree that unwanted shifting is not cool, it’s ok if it is all out by a certain amount, that’s easy fixed, even in real time.

I guess it’s a very personal thing, if you’re making music and it all sounds good to you - no problem :slight_smile:

I must admit I am liking working all in modular, been doing it more and more, the last Elektrons could be going!


#57

I’ve decided my dream is that that the first 0.3 version land soon. The suspense is killing me. :joy_cat:


#58

this is exactly the functionality i been hoping for on the 301 as well


#59

I think randomise has been suggested before but i would like to see a patch mutator, which is a more advanced randomize feature. It does it in a musical way and randomises the whole patch or specific bits of your patch - more info here (page 3 onwards) This is really great way to mix up your patches and get unusual sounding patches. http://www.nordkeyboards.com/sites/default/files/files/downloads/manuals/nord-modular-G2/Nord%20Modular%20G2%20Mutator%20English%20User%20Manual%20v1.0%20Edition%20A.pdf


#60

I really love my G2 and that is also because of the variations in combination with the patch mutator. So I would be super exited if any of this ideas come to the 301!