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Request: European/Worldwide dealers to prevent unnecessary import tax


#21

I always thought the good thing about taxes is that the sovereign builds nice gardens out of it for our leisure. And streets to get to the gardens. Also schools I think. So we can learn to live. Otherwise we had to walk there and then the gardens would be closed for the public but only belong to the capitalists…

You probably also pay taxes on coffee and underwear at the same amount. If you are a professional, you can just claim it back for your needed tools. Until then, this might help to get over it:


#22

The only convenience to buying locally is that delivery time will be less - assuming they have stock.

You may even pay more because the reseller could charge a higher price, because enough consumers would be prepared to pay it for the convenience of faster delivery!

At the end of the day, one should decide whether a 301 is worth the cost irrespective of how much it costs elsewhere in the world.

If you look at what you get - it is pretty incredible value for money as of v3.18.


#23

The 170EUR is not import tax. It’s VAT. :thinking:

I did sell via retail for a few years in Europe. However, your claims do not match my experience. Maybe I was doing it wrong :laughing: but the cost to the user did not change and my revenue per unit was reduced substantially. However, retailers can move way more units than I can with my silly website. So it was fine. Since last year, the reason why I stopped doing retail is because I can’t even produce enough units to cover my direct orders anymore.

I’m not an expert but based on claims from other customers this tax reduction still applies when purchasing from abroad. AFAIK people (i.e. businesses) are doing it all the time when purchasing direct from me.


#24

The fees are made up of:

Import duty

VAT

and usually a postal service charge!

This is 100% unavoidable as a private customer whether you buy direct from O|D or through a retailer.

If you are a business it is irrelevant which method you use you can still claim the taxes back.

tl;dr the unit will cost more or less the same no matter where you get it from and you will always have fees to pay.

p.s. the only exception I know of is if you live in the U.S. they often seem to miss making these charges and I know one or two folk here received the unit without paying any additional fees. So perhaps the answer is to move to the U.S. :smiley:


#25

There is another method - but you must have a friend in Japan that you can ask for a favor & that has company.
Friend buys from O|D directly.
Repacks the modules into different package. Makes a new invoice with something like 100euro. On the invoice he needs to write that the goods are either damaged or “exhibition/used/collectioner” units.
He sends you oryginal O|D invoice via mail later.
Just make sure you pay proper insurance in a case of broken items.

You will pay VAT% from the 100euro.

Its funny because:

  1. it’s totally illegal if O|D would do this.
  2. it’s totally LEGAL if 3rd party does it. - He could buy the items and fry them/brake them/exhibit them and resell them. Just stupid laws :slight_smile:

The “in house” soulution would be for O|D to have registered 2 separate companies and do this magic via simple re-invoicing :P.


#26

Well, yeah…

The downside to this is if your parcel is smashed into a thousand pieces on it’s journey - you get 100 Euro from the insurance if you are lucky! I don’t know any insurance company that will insure an item for more than the declared value.

Absolutely not worth the very high risk imho! I wouldn’t do it, and I would never ask O|D to do this either :frowning:


#27

The trick is to insure with oryginal invoice :slight_smile:, the scan is enough for this.


#28

Hmm… Maybe it’s possible to commit fraud like this elsewhere but here in the UK the insurance is strongly tied to the postage, so if you declare 100 euro on the insurance, that is what is written on the customs declaration.


#29

I see. Well; just need to check your country insurance companies. Because you can always insure it as “art” or “collectioners items” there are many options really, the invoice is irrelevant in many insuring companies you just need to declare its value for You.


#30

Yeah, the two go hand in hand, typical post office experience:

Hand parcel over
Parcel is weighed
Declare value
Select postage option to include insurance or not
Postage and customs paperwork produced by counter staff and the declared value used for both

That’s it, there’s no real way to avoid it that I know of, you can’t as they say, have your cake and eat it :slight_smile:


#31

It may be legal (I’m honestly not sure if it even is - or if it is just something that is easy to get away with as it’s hard to prove), but even if that is the case, I still think it’s wrong. Taxes exist for a reason and if you’re in a position where you’re buying thousands of euros worth of eurorack, you’re also in a position to be able to afford to pay taxes (or you’ll get them back anyways if you need the equipment professionally). Evading taxes through such means is deeply dishonest in my opinion. Feeling clever about that is just sad.


#32

Well then the only Real way to avoid is is to have someone that has a company (any kind of company will do). You just pay normal VAT at customs, and then gets it returned via friend. It can be self-playing so it can be classified as “guest entertainment system” etc.


#33

To each it’s own. Most asian countries + USA have only “profit tax” which i agree with, or VAT is on like 7-10% (8% in japan) max. VAT in EU is mostly above 20% and is just your country stealing from you kind of tax. But that’s politics.


#34

No postal service I know of will let me write $100 on the customs form, and then insure it for $1,000. Fraud by it’s very definition is all over this suggestion.

I’m not saying that as a judgement on you or your suggestion, just that in most legal systems this is what your suggestion amounts to.


#35

This is about to go off the rails and start floundering in politics. That will in turn take temperatures up and create friction that benefits the users of the O|D forum in which ways?


#36

Im only trying to help one user here; i don’t really care if you pay your taxes or not its simply not my business. I’m only suggesting possible solutions, its up to the users to use them or not.

//Off topic - the biggest forbes top 100 companies all have the tax avoidance policies & structures of people to do exactly one thing, and on a scale much bigger than any single person ever. What i try to say - there are holes in laws. You can choose to exploit them as they are legal to exploit until “patched” with a bill. The law dont works backwards. End of off topic.//

@2disbetter you don’t need to insure with the postal company. There is literally tons of outside private companies that will insure anything you want for any price you want.


#37

Sidenote: Amazon earned $5.6B in 2017, but paid no federal taxes

Wish I knew someone in Japan. I can barely afford the ER-301 as a musician, but I’m trying to make it work.


#38

Found this in a news article as well:

In the case of amazon, the taxes it collects on individual purchases is just as profitable. Trust me the US federal government isn’t letting Amazon slide without getting something equally valuable in return.

I sympathize, but what I don’t understand is how it isn’t possible for you to save up for the 301? Like if you could get it now for $600, why can’t you wait a little bit (a number of months, etc.) and get it then for $850 plus VAT and customs? Just because you can’t afford it now, doesn’t mean you can’t afford it ever.


#39

Not everyone makes the same amount of money. Also, the availability means that you’ll have to wait a bit if you miss the new batch. Which could mean months… or a lifetime in arts.


#40

Seriously @Adore are you this naive? Amazon has a payroll of nearly $2 billion per month. It invests billions every year in operations and infrastructure that employs even more people. It spends over $7 billion a year on shipping services that support thousands of UPS, Fedex, and postal service workers around the world. In selling $178 billion a year in goods Amazon supports how many manufacturers? And you are going to look at its 3% earnings on that and complain?

Get a programming, engineering, medical, or other career that will let you afford the endeavors you are interested in…what’s next? Lamborghini should build at $15,000 race car so I can have what I want.

I seriously detest that this thread has come to exist on this otherwise intelligent forum.